Humanising Leadership with Mark LeBusque Artwork

Xtraordinary Leaders - The Podcast

The art and science of remarkable leadership

Xtraordinary Leaders - The Podcast

Humanising Leadership with Mark LeBusque

July 18, 2022 • Season 2 • Episode 8

Mark LeBusque is on a mission to challenge leaders and organisation to be more human. His people centric approach to leadership and organisation development is both provocative and timely as companies grapple with the competing tensions between people and profit. In this episode Ged talks with his good friend Mark about the mission, why it matters and how leaders can adopt more human-centric practices that can unleash the real potential of their teams and organisations.

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Take Care, Lead Well.

Mark Lebusque - full podcast - SUBTITLED

Created on: 2022-07-15 08:21:40

Project Length: 00:53:04

Account Holder: Gerard Penna

File Name: Xtraordinary Leaders - Podcast EP20.mp3

File Length: 00:53:04

FULL TRANSCRIPT (with timecode)

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It's not about the ordinary.

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We've got enough of that.

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It's about

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the extraordinary.

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And we need more

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Hi there.

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I'm Gerard PENNA and welcome

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to the Extraordinary

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Leaders podcast, where we spend

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time with recognized leaders

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and global experts exploring

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the art and science

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of remarkable leadership.

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Hello and welcome to the

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Extraordinary Leaders podcast.

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My name is Gerard Penna and I'm

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the host, as well as being the

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founder of

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Extraordinary Leaders,

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a leadership development

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company committed to lifting

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the bar on leadership, as well

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as supporting leaders in all

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walks of life and at all stages

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of their leadership journey.

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This podcast is an extension of

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our purpose to help leaders

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succeed and to help leaders

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step up to something beyond

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the average, ordinary home

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garden variety of leadership

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that many of us have to

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tolerate in our daily lives.

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We do this through our podcast

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by interviewing experts who

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have something unique to

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contribute to our understanding

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of the exercise of leadership,

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as well as conversations with

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extraordinary and remarkable

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leaders in their own right.

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Individuals who are prepared to

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put themselves out there to

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influence and engage and

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mobilize people around purposes

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that matter missions,

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goals, visions, and outcomes

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that make a difference for them

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and for the people that they

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do it with.

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Today's conversation and guest

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is an extension of a very

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important development that's

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occurring in the world of work

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and in the world

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of leadership.

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The humanizing of workplaces.

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Unfortunately, the practices of

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many of our organizations and

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workplaces and

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even leadership.

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Are the legacy of the

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Industrial Revolution, in which

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we found new ways of being able

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to organize resources and

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organize processes and organize

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people to produce more

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things faster,

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more efficiently.

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That industrialization process

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was focused on the design of

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things and the organization of

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things for that

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efficiency and productivity.

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The assumption was that if we

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were to design

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these organizations,

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design these processes

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perfectly from an

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engineering sense, we should

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then be able to administer them

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and execute them and operate

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them in that perfect way.

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And their job would be,

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therefore, to identify those

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ways in which the processes

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were not following the intended

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design in some way,

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deviating from

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what was intended.

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And our job is to jump on it,

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to identify the gap,

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identify the error,

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and then fix it.

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And that thinking has permeated

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the way that we think about

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people as well, that they

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should be able to execute

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things perfectly, that they

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should be able to fit together

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in this seamless series of

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cogs or interactions.

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But we all know from the lived

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experience that this is not the

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way it is.

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This is not what it means to be

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human in the workplace.

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To have a workplace that is

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truly human, that honors the

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role that people play

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within it.

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And respects their needs

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motivations as human beings.

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One of my favorite quotes

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comes to mind.

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It was by Rear Admiral

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Grace Murray Hopper.

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She was the first female to

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achieve flag status in the

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United States Navy.

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She was also known for being

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one of two people who developed

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the computer programming

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language that was used all

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around the world called COBOL.

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And she's also responsible for

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coining the phrase There's a

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bug in the system which we use

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when our computers and other

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devices stop working properly.

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Apparently, in the days when

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they used to have these large

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reel to reel computers with

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magnetic tape and these large

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cabinets in which

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they were housed.

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Grace Murray Hopper one day

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came in to work and she found

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that that

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computer wasn't working.

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So they she opened up the

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cabinet doors and a whole lot

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of moths flew out.

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There'd been an infestation

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which had stopped the the

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computer working properly.

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And she's responsible for

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coining that phrase.

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There's a bug in the system.

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The phrase that she used that I

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use most regularly is we manage

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things and we lead people.

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And given that leadership is

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about people

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about influencing,

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engaging and

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mobilizing people.

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It's quite difficult to have a

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conversation about leadership

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and what leadership needs to

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look like and what leaders need

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to do to be able to lift their

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effectiveness without talking

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about people, without talking

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about the human aspect.

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And so my guest in today's

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podcast episode and the topic

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that we're talking about is

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all about that.

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It's about being human and

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humanizing workplaces,

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being human as a leader.

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So showing up.

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Really genuinely,

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authentically as a human being

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and what that means.

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As well as humanizing

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workplaces that allows human

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beings to be.

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To thrive.

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And to grow.

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I first met Mark close to ten

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years ago when we both attended

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a program at

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Harvard Kennedy School.

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At that stage, Mark had been a

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senior leader within one of my

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former client organizations,

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Australia Post, and he'd done

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an amazing job running an

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experiment or at humanising the

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workplace for his team,

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and he'd been able to produce

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some astounding results.

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Mark had become very motivated

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to share this more broadly and

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wanted to step more effectively

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into a leadership role,

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whether it was in

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the organisation, outside the

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organisation in which he

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could change, change the

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narrative around leadership and

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culture to accommodate and

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acknowledge the human aspect.

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It seemed to me to be a pivotal

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moment for Mark and when he

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returned from Harvard.

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He was on a mission and he,

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over the last nine years has

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become a a strong voice

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around humanizing workplaces.

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He does this through

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his consulting, coaching,

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advising of organizations,

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including the AFL, through the

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books that he's written and

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published on the topic.

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Through his own simply

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practically human podcast.

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And through his recent founding

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of the Human Manager Academy.

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My observation is that

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everything that Mark has done

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over the last decade has been

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entirely consistent with my

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first experiences of him as

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someone who is

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vulnerable, courageous.

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Authentic.

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Outspoken, provocative.

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And focused on creating a much

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more human world in which we

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can live and thrive.

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So I hope you

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enjoyed this episode.

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Going to be a good one.

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Well, my good friend

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Mark LeBusque.

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It is an absolute privilege and

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joy to have you on the

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Extraordinary Leaders

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podcast.

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Welcome.

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Thanks for having me on, mate.

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I am returning the favor from

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when you came on mine.

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It was a magnificent episode.

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Thank you.

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My pleasure.

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I've I've you know, prior to us

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having this conversation,

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I've let the listener know a

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bit about you, what your

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background and a bit about what

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you do, but not really who

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you are, and particularly not

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how you see yourself.

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So that's my first question

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for you, mate.

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If it's okay, straight to it.

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Who is Mark LeBusque?

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What a good question.

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I'd like to Mark LeBusque is

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I'm going to say I want to

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start with two words helpful

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human is really the way that

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I describe myself.

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He is also a combination of

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some pretty simple stuff,

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but also some very complex is a

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complex piece to him as well.

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I'd say that I'm a

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like I like to I like to

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affectionately call myself the

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certified bogan from

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my upbringing, which was in

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Mildura up on the Murray River

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and you know tipped hair and

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permed hair at 15, some of

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those sorts of things.

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But at the same time

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there's a.

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Is a depth to me that

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sometimes I think.

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Gerard I like to play

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down a bit.

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There's a depth of knowledge

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and understanding and of,

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of all these things,

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human leadership.

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And I reckon I've just been

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doing some work around this

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just recently about why it is

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that I try and step

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away from that.

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But so simple,

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complicated, helpful.

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And I'd like to think,

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as people have said to me,

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a big bloke with a warm heart.

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Yeah I that resonates for me

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definitely and the certified

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bogan because I think you and I

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when we first met each other

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and it was possibly on one of

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our walks at Harvard between

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the residencies and the lecture

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theatres that we talked about,

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a whole bunch of stuff.

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And one of the things that we

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talked about was our,

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you know, what seem to be

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some similarities, you know,

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not just sort of

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biological similarities,

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but same age,

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roughly same age.

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Both played the guitar and both

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were bogans in

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our teenage years.

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So I had the I had the

00:09:30:15 - 00:09:31:29

marijuana earring with the

00:09:32:01 - 00:09:34:14

clash cut off sleeve t shirt

00:09:34:26 - 00:09:36:18

and the I my hair was actually

00:09:36:20 - 00:09:38:22

not tipped it was grape purple

00:09:38:24 - 00:09:39:19

because I'd used a home

00:09:39:21 - 00:09:40:06

dye on it.

00:09:41:25 - 00:09:43:16

Magnificent.

00:09:43:18 - 00:09:44:03

Wow And it was funny,

00:09:44:05 - 00:09:46:04

those walks too, because look,

00:09:46:06 - 00:09:48:00

I'd first met you when I was at

00:09:48:02 - 00:09:49:00

Australia Post and you were

00:09:49:02 - 00:09:49:17

coming in and

00:09:49:19 - 00:09:50:22

doing some facilitation.

00:09:50:24 - 00:09:51:27

And I know I've said this to

00:09:51:29 - 00:09:53:08

you before, but I used to sit

00:09:53:10 - 00:09:55:00

there and go, I want to

00:09:55:02 - 00:09:57:03

be him, I want to be the guy at

00:09:57:05 - 00:09:57:26

the front of the room.

00:09:57:28 - 00:09:59:12

And then I was lucky to be

00:09:59:14 - 00:10:01:19

introduced to you by, I think,

00:10:01:21 - 00:10:02:18

Dennis Attackador.

00:10:02:20 - 00:10:03:26

And then we caught up a few

00:10:03:28 - 00:10:05:07

times and I was always

00:10:05:09 - 00:10:06:22

absolutely in awe and I think I

00:10:06:24 - 00:10:07:28

used to say that a bit.

00:10:08:00 - 00:10:10:14

I'd be like, This guy is like,

00:10:10:16 - 00:10:12:02

he's uber smart, he's clever,

00:10:12:04 - 00:10:14:15

he he uses really cool words,

00:10:14:17 - 00:10:15:27

but he, but there's a real

00:10:15:29 - 00:10:16:19

depth about him.

00:10:16:21 - 00:10:18:26

And I was like, fanboy knew for

00:10:18:28 - 00:10:19:27

a long time and then I got to

00:10:19:29 - 00:10:21:02

go to Harvard with you and we

00:10:21:04 - 00:10:23:03

had some great conversations

00:10:23:06 - 00:10:24:00

and I think what came out of

00:10:24:02 - 00:10:24:22

that for me was.

00:10:25:28 - 00:10:28:18

Oh, look, I think I can now I

00:10:28:20 - 00:10:29:22

can actually stand

00:10:29:24 - 00:10:30:15

in his company.

00:10:30:17 - 00:10:31:21

I don't need to feel like I've

00:10:31:24 - 00:10:33:11

got to sit beneath him.

00:10:33:13 - 00:10:34:15

And that was a really good

00:10:34:17 - 00:10:36:26

moment for me because I

00:10:36:28 - 00:10:38:28

appreciated your wise counsel

00:10:39:00 - 00:10:40:04

early on, but then also your

00:10:40:06 - 00:10:41:00

friendship from there.

00:10:41:02 - 00:10:41:25

Yeah, likewise.

00:10:42:04 - 00:10:43:12

Isn't it funny how we.

00:10:45:17 - 00:10:46:24

Until when?

00:10:46:26 - 00:10:48:11

We don't really know someone

00:10:48:13 - 00:10:50:01

how we can hold them in a way.

00:10:50:03 - 00:10:50:21

Which is.

00:10:52:06 - 00:10:52:27

I said what?

00:10:52:29 - 00:10:54:02

I said, not helpful.

00:10:54:04 - 00:10:54:19

It's.

00:10:55:13 - 00:10:58:05

It's not complete and it,

00:10:58:16 - 00:11:00:18

and it does something

00:11:00:21 - 00:11:01:15

for us sometimes.

00:11:01:17 - 00:11:02:02

Which.

00:11:03:12 - 00:11:04:23

Doesn't allow ourselves to

00:11:04:25 - 00:11:06:10

actually be the way we need to

00:11:06:12 - 00:11:07:23

be or acknowledge ourselves the

00:11:07:25 - 00:11:08:10

way we need

00:11:08:12 - 00:11:08:29

to acknowledge ourselves.

00:11:09:01 - 00:11:10:27

But once we get to really know

00:11:10:29 - 00:11:12:12

that person, once we understand

00:11:12:14 - 00:11:14:21

the human that sits behind

00:11:14:23 - 00:11:15:26

the professional, the human

00:11:15:28 - 00:11:16:20

that sits behind the

00:11:16:22 - 00:11:18:12

professional act that,

00:11:18:14 - 00:11:19:13

you know, people might observe

00:11:19:15 - 00:11:20:00

of me when I'm

00:11:20:02 - 00:11:21:05

doing my facilitation.

00:11:23:14 - 00:11:25:21

It's incredible what it does to

00:11:25:23 - 00:11:26:19

the relationship and it

00:11:26:21 - 00:11:27:12

does for ourselves.

00:11:28:07 - 00:11:29:07

And that's that's that kind of

00:11:29:09 - 00:11:30:21

whole thing about human is

00:11:31:18 - 00:11:33:01

really that space that you

00:11:33:03 - 00:11:34:18

spent so much of your time in,

00:11:34:20 - 00:11:35:16

apart from the fact that,

00:11:35:26 - 00:11:37:09

you know, biologically as a

00:11:37:15 - 00:11:38:15

you act, you are part of the

00:11:38:17 - 00:11:39:24

human species, but you've

00:11:39:26 - 00:11:41:00

actually written two books.

00:11:41:02 - 00:11:42:12

The first one was Being Human

00:11:42:28 - 00:11:44:14

Why Robots Are Not the Answer

00:11:44:16 - 00:11:46:23

to Business Success and the

00:11:46:25 - 00:11:47:20

Little Book of Human,

00:11:47:22 - 00:11:49:16

which wasn't that long ago that

00:11:49:18 - 00:11:50:29

I was really fortunate to come

00:11:51:01 - 00:11:52:16

along to the launch of the

00:11:52:18 - 00:11:54:11

Little Book of Human Tales

00:11:54:13 - 00:11:55:26

Tools and Told You so's.

00:11:56:13 - 00:11:58:07

What inspired you to write them

00:11:58:09 - 00:11:59:04

and what's the connection of

00:11:59:06 - 00:12:00:28

those to this idea about being

00:12:01:00 - 00:12:01:16

human?

00:12:04:25 - 00:12:06:14

I guess the inspiration was

00:12:07:06 - 00:12:09:23

2020 odd years in corporate and

00:12:09:25 - 00:12:11:29

look really fortunate to to

00:12:12:01 - 00:12:12:28

spend that time there.

00:12:13:03 - 00:12:14:09

Sometimes I can be a little

00:12:14:11 - 00:12:15:25

critical of corporate, but I

00:12:15:27 - 00:12:18:04

think it was a great learning

00:12:18:06 - 00:12:19:01

laboratory for me.

00:12:19:03 - 00:12:20:24

And I guess what inspired it

00:12:20:26 - 00:12:22:26

was a I call it a

00:12:22:28 - 00:12:24:00

two year experiment.

00:12:24:04 - 00:12:26:04

And I can also say that I

00:12:26:06 - 00:12:28:21

wasn't always the most human of

00:12:28:23 - 00:12:29:26

managers very much.

00:12:29:28 - 00:12:33:00

Early days, young egomaniac

00:12:33:13 - 00:12:34:15

wanted to get to the top,

00:12:34:17 - 00:12:35:13

wanted to get a title.

00:12:35:15 - 00:12:38:03

So it was all about humans as

00:12:38:22 - 00:12:40:05

units of labor and outputs.

00:12:40:07 - 00:12:40:28

And I did that for a

00:12:41:00 - 00:12:41:21

very long time.

00:12:41:23 - 00:12:42:16

And I guess as you get a

00:12:42:18 - 00:12:44:26

bit older, in my last role,

00:12:44:28 - 00:12:49:05

I started to feel like I was an

00:12:49:07 - 00:12:51:25

outsider in the system, and I

00:12:51:27 - 00:12:53:01

think I started to flex a bit

00:12:53:03 - 00:12:54:14

of the maverick in me to go,

00:12:54:16 - 00:12:55:04

let's just try

00:12:55:06 - 00:12:55:26

some different things.

00:12:55:28 - 00:12:57:07

So the experiment was this.

00:12:58:10 - 00:12:59:10

The question was what would

00:12:59:12 - 00:13:00:19

happen if I treated my people

00:13:00:21 - 00:13:01:19

like human beings?

00:13:01:21 - 00:13:03:22

I sit down with an A3 sheet of

00:13:03:24 - 00:13:04:28

paper and I wrote the word

00:13:05:00 - 00:13:05:22

trust in the middle

00:13:05:24 - 00:13:06:10

of that sheet.

00:13:06:12 - 00:13:07:15

And then I wrote around that.

00:13:08:02 - 00:13:10:00

What would be some things that

00:13:10:02 - 00:13:11:24

I would do if I truly treated

00:13:11:26 - 00:13:12:21

the people like humans?

00:13:12:23 - 00:13:15:15

So I then ran an experiment,

00:13:15:17 - 00:13:17:05

the experiment on that, and I

00:13:17:07 - 00:13:18:23

went pretty gung ho at

00:13:18:25 - 00:13:21:00

the experiment, and ultimately

00:13:21:14 - 00:13:23:08

it resulted in some really

00:13:23:10 - 00:13:25:03

solid financial results

00:13:25:05 - 00:13:25:26

in the business.

00:13:26:21 - 00:13:29:17

So that really inspired me

00:13:29:19 - 00:13:30:28

to say, I'd like to do this

00:13:31:00 - 00:13:32:17

with more than 40 people and

00:13:32:23 - 00:13:34:07

and that then became more

00:13:34:09 - 00:13:35:21

people within that organization

00:13:35:24 - 00:13:37:07

and then ultimately the

00:13:37:09 - 00:13:38:08

opportunity to take it

00:13:38:10 - 00:13:39:03

outside of there.

00:13:39:05 - 00:13:41:22

Because what I really what I

00:13:41:24 - 00:13:43:04

really uncovered was that

00:13:44:26 - 00:13:45:29

there's a uniqueness to

00:13:46:01 - 00:13:46:28

each human being.

00:13:47:00 - 00:13:49:06

And I think potentially the way

00:13:49:08 - 00:13:51:00

we treat them in organizations

00:13:51:02 - 00:13:52:03

can be a bit robotic.

00:13:52:05 - 00:13:53:18

And I just wanted to see what

00:13:53:20 - 00:13:54:06

would happen out the

00:13:54:08 - 00:13:54:23

other side.

00:13:54:25 - 00:13:57:17

And look, fortunately,

00:13:57:19 - 00:13:59:02

maybe luckily or maybe not

00:13:59:04 - 00:14:00:20

luckily shared that the results

00:14:00:22 - 00:14:02:02

were significantly higher than

00:14:02:04 - 00:14:03:11

ever and it gave me some

00:14:03:13 - 00:14:05:13

liberty to keep applying that

00:14:05:15 - 00:14:07:09

and then ultimately taking it

00:14:07:11 - 00:14:08:20

out into the world to say

00:14:08:22 - 00:14:09:10

to people that.

00:14:10:16 - 00:14:12:17

That you can do this as well if

00:14:12:19 - 00:14:15:21

you're prepared to walk away

00:14:15:24 - 00:14:17:04

from some of the old system

00:14:17:18 - 00:14:20:05

and and embrace.

00:14:20:11 - 00:14:21:04

And I'm going to say this

00:14:21:06 - 00:14:22:03

starting with yourself,

00:14:22:05 - 00:14:23:15

embrace a more human approach,

00:14:23:17 - 00:14:24:15

which includes things like

00:14:24:17 - 00:14:25:10

deeper connections,

00:14:25:12 - 00:14:26:18

stronger sense of belonging.

00:14:27:21 - 00:14:29:00

Creating a safety net.

00:14:29:03 - 00:14:30:08

All of those things that we

00:14:30:10 - 00:14:32:16

talk a lot about, but we may

00:14:32:18 - 00:14:33:26

not have quite been able to get

00:14:33:28 - 00:14:34:24

there for one reason

00:14:34:26 - 00:14:35:11

or another.

00:14:36:03 - 00:14:37:15

You mentioned the sort of the

00:14:37:17 - 00:14:40:17

journey as sort of the start in

00:14:40:19 - 00:14:42:23

that narrative was, you know,

00:14:42:25 - 00:14:45:19

being at work and having this

00:14:45:21 - 00:14:46:25

piece of paper and writing the

00:14:46:27 - 00:14:48:02

word trust in the center.

00:14:48:20 - 00:14:50:23

What, though, was the personal

00:14:50:25 - 00:14:52:18

experience that kind of

00:14:52:20 - 00:14:54:12

catalyzed your desire?

00:14:54:27 - 00:14:56:15

What was the self-realisation

00:14:56:17 - 00:14:57:08

or the question that was

00:14:57:10 - 00:14:58:01

sitting with you?

00:14:58:03 - 00:14:58:19

Well, the thing that was

00:14:58:21 - 00:15:01:04

niggling you that led you to

00:15:01:06 - 00:15:02:10

want to make that choice.

00:15:06:28 - 00:15:07:26

What a great question.

00:15:07:28 - 00:15:08:13

So.

00:15:11:10 - 00:15:13:07

I just it was interesting that

00:15:13:09 - 00:15:14:13

I kept saying myself

00:15:14:15 - 00:15:15:18

to myself, this is going to

00:15:15:20 - 00:15:16:26

sound really benign,

00:15:16:28 - 00:15:17:24

but there's got to be

00:15:17:26 - 00:15:18:18

a better way.

00:15:19:22 - 00:15:21:00

Because we talk about it

00:15:21:02 - 00:15:21:17

a lot.

00:15:21:19 - 00:15:23:28

We talk about the people and

00:15:24:00 - 00:15:25:19

the people are our priority and

00:15:25:21 - 00:15:26:06

we should put the

00:15:26:08 - 00:15:26:29

people first.

00:15:27:01 - 00:15:29:02

And all of those words continue

00:15:29:04 - 00:15:30:24

to echo within my head,

00:15:30:26 - 00:15:31:14

and then I'll be like,

00:15:31:24 - 00:15:33:06

What does that mean?

00:15:33:08 - 00:15:35:02

And then and I'm going to say

00:15:35:04 - 00:15:35:28

this is with a little bit of

00:15:36:00 - 00:15:37:08

maverick in me, comes out

00:15:37:10 - 00:15:39:12

and goes, Why don't you why

00:15:39:14 - 00:15:41:00

don't you be the first one to

00:15:41:04 - 00:15:42:19

truly try this and see

00:15:42:21 - 00:15:43:21

what what happens.

00:15:45:04 - 00:15:46:21

So it was, it was about being

00:15:46:24 - 00:15:47:18

doing the right thing.

00:15:47:21 - 00:15:50:08

But what I really do know is

00:15:50:10 - 00:15:51:16

that and I think we've spoken

00:15:51:18 - 00:15:52:25

about this before, when I did

00:15:52:27 - 00:15:53:28

get a chance to sit down and

00:15:54:00 - 00:15:55:12

think more deeply about it,

00:15:55:17 - 00:15:57:03

I'm going to say more after the

00:15:57:05 - 00:15:59:03

event than before because I am

00:15:59:09 - 00:16:00:06

pretty simple, like it

00:16:00:08 - 00:16:00:28

just seems right.

00:16:01:00 - 00:16:03:17

But you know, the passing of my

00:16:03:19 - 00:16:06:01

father through him, taking his

00:16:06:03 - 00:16:07:14

own life, when I got to sit

00:16:07:16 - 00:16:09:16

down and and think about it,

00:16:09:18 - 00:16:10:13

when I was out doing my own

00:16:10:15 - 00:16:11:13

thing and not having a lot of

00:16:11:15 - 00:16:14:02

work early days was I really

00:16:14:04 - 00:16:15:09

started to dig into that.

00:16:15:11 - 00:16:17:24

And he'd left a note which

00:16:18:01 - 00:16:20:17

talked about belonging and that

00:16:21:24 - 00:16:23:03

he was unsuccessful in his

00:16:23:05 - 00:16:24:03

first attempt to take

00:16:24:05 - 00:16:24:20

his life.

00:16:24:24 - 00:16:26:07

And he left a note that said On

00:16:26:09 - 00:16:27:24

the bird and I'm and

00:16:27:26 - 00:16:28:16

I don't belong.

00:16:29:04 - 00:16:32:16

And my catch cry today is and I

00:16:32:18 - 00:16:33:17

know people are bit critical of

00:16:33:19 - 00:16:34:14

one of the words which is

00:16:34:16 - 00:16:35:17

making but making

00:16:35:19 - 00:16:36:18

every human belong.

00:16:36:20 - 00:16:37:19

That's something that's very,

00:16:37:21 - 00:16:38:15

very dear to me.

00:16:38:17 - 00:16:41:04

And I think it was really I

00:16:41:06 - 00:16:42:04

don't know that I had the

00:16:42:06 - 00:16:43:20

maturity when I first did the

00:16:43:22 - 00:16:45:10

experiment to have dug that

00:16:45:12 - 00:16:47:10

deeply into why I was

00:16:47:12 - 00:16:47:27

doing it.

00:16:47:29 - 00:16:49:05

But when I had the time to

00:16:49:07 - 00:16:51:23

do that, to me, it's that's the

00:16:51:25 - 00:16:53:00

driver for me is that

00:16:53:26 - 00:16:55:18

human beings crave.

00:16:56:24 - 00:16:57:20

Social belonging.

00:16:57:22 - 00:16:59:03

They crave connection.

00:16:59:05 - 00:17:00:27

And and I just think we've got

00:17:00:29 - 00:17:02:06

such a great opportunity as

00:17:02:08 - 00:17:04:15

leaders and managers to to

00:17:04:17 - 00:17:07:06

create that space where people

00:17:07:08 - 00:17:08:21

have a really strong sense of

00:17:09:01 - 00:17:11:11

where I fit into my team,

00:17:11:13 - 00:17:12:02

my department,

00:17:12:04 - 00:17:15:02

my organization, my community,

00:17:15:04 - 00:17:16:22

my family, all of those

00:17:16:24 - 00:17:17:09

sorts of things.

00:17:17:11 - 00:17:18:29

So I think that's been that's

00:17:19:01 - 00:17:19:27

very clear to me now.

00:17:19:29 - 00:17:20:27

But back then it was

00:17:20:29 - 00:17:22:11

more like, I just

00:17:22:13 - 00:17:23:00

think it's right.

00:17:23:28 - 00:17:24:22

And that was.

00:17:25:24 - 00:17:26:29

It was quite an experiment for

00:17:27:01 - 00:17:28:01

you to do.

00:17:28:03 - 00:17:29:00

Start doing this work and

00:17:29:02 - 00:17:30:06

thinking about doing this work

00:17:30:08 - 00:17:32:03

in the organization that you

00:17:32:20 - 00:17:33:28

worked in at the time because

00:17:34:00 - 00:17:35:06

it was an organization that

00:17:35:08 - 00:17:35:26

whilst it was.

00:17:37:11 - 00:17:38:14

People were nice to

00:17:38:16 - 00:17:39:01

each other.

00:17:39:29 - 00:17:42:06

There was this element of it.

00:17:42:08 - 00:17:43:17

It was all built around linear

00:17:43:19 - 00:17:45:07

processes that were all about

00:17:45:09 - 00:17:47:07

the movement of units of things

00:17:47:09 - 00:17:48:09

from here to there at the

00:17:48:11 - 00:17:49:16

lowest possible cost.

00:17:50:01 - 00:17:51:07

A lot of engineers had built

00:17:51:09 - 00:17:52:10

and designed the process,

00:17:52:12 - 00:17:53:09

and then a lot of technocrats

00:17:53:11 - 00:17:53:27

were running it.

00:17:54:09 - 00:17:56:04

So to even attempt to do

00:17:56:06 - 00:17:57:01

something like that in that

00:17:57:03 - 00:17:58:21

organization was quite both,

00:17:58:23 - 00:18:00:05

you know, courageous and

00:18:00:07 - 00:18:01:09

powerful as an experiment.

00:18:01:19 - 00:18:02:24

You've then gone outside the

00:18:02:26 - 00:18:04:25

organisation and for now a

00:18:04:27 - 00:18:05:20

number of years you've

00:18:05:22 - 00:18:06:17

been out there.

00:18:08:07 - 00:18:10:13

Encouraging people to be

00:18:10:15 - 00:18:12:22

more human, to help make people

00:18:13:11 - 00:18:14:12

provide the opportunity for

00:18:14:14 - 00:18:15:17

people to be more human.

00:18:16:21 - 00:18:17:06

What?

00:18:17:11 - 00:18:18:25

What have you then observed and

00:18:18:27 - 00:18:21:26

experienced in those workplaces

00:18:21:28 - 00:18:23:18

that were beyond where you

00:18:23:20 - 00:18:24:21

first started doing this?

00:18:24:23 - 00:18:25:19

Has it led you to the

00:18:25:21 - 00:18:28:02

conclusion that workplaces are

00:18:28:04 - 00:18:29:08

more human than you thought

00:18:29:10 - 00:18:29:25

they were?

00:18:29:27 - 00:18:31:07

Or, as a general rule, do they

00:18:31:09 - 00:18:32:21

need a lot more humanizing than

00:18:32:23 - 00:18:33:14

you originally thought?

00:18:35:24 - 00:18:37:05

The really easy answer is all

00:18:37:07 - 00:18:37:28

of the above.

00:18:38:11 - 00:18:39:12

What have I observed?

00:18:39:16 - 00:18:42:26

I have observed a real appetite

00:18:42:28 - 00:18:43:21

for this work.

00:18:45:02 - 00:18:46:13

In the majority of cases,

00:18:46:15 - 00:18:47:19

because, look, you know,

00:18:47:21 - 00:18:49:01

we're tapping into what it is

00:18:49:03 - 00:18:49:26

to be human.

00:18:49:28 - 00:18:52:08

And that's the essence

00:18:52:10 - 00:18:53:18

of life, really.

00:18:53:20 - 00:18:54:13

It's the connection,

00:18:54:15 - 00:18:55:04

it's the belonging.

00:18:55:06 - 00:18:56:06

So there's a real there's an

00:18:56:08 - 00:18:57:03

appetite for it.

00:18:58:12 - 00:18:59:19

There's some trepidation

00:18:59:21 - 00:19:00:26

as well, because a lot of my

00:19:00:28 - 00:19:02:20

work is, you know, is very much

00:19:02:22 - 00:19:05:10

based on the work of self.

00:19:05:26 - 00:19:08:11

So so it's like we're very

00:19:08:13 - 00:19:10:18

excited because usually,

00:19:10:20 - 00:19:11:20

you know, we'll do some things

00:19:11:22 - 00:19:13:00

around how to motivate our

00:19:13:02 - 00:19:14:16

teams and how to have difficult

00:19:14:18 - 00:19:15:18

conversations and these

00:19:15:20 - 00:19:16:06

sorts of things.

00:19:16:08 - 00:19:18:03

But it's like now 75% of the

00:19:18:05 - 00:19:21:00

time is you looking at yourself

00:19:21:02 - 00:19:22:14

as the experiment here.

00:19:23:06 - 00:19:25:12

And so any time we start to

00:19:25:14 - 00:19:26:11

create that level of

00:19:26:13 - 00:19:27:12

disequilibrium for

00:19:27:14 - 00:19:29:05

human beings, then it's like,

00:19:30:01 - 00:19:31:00

You want me to do what?

00:19:31:09 - 00:19:32:06

And I'm like, Yeah, we're going

00:19:32:08 - 00:19:32:24

to you're going to work

00:19:32:26 - 00:19:33:15

on yourself first.

00:19:33:17 - 00:19:35:10

So but look, all in all,

00:19:35:12 - 00:19:36:14

I'm going to say, I reckon I

00:19:36:16 - 00:19:37:24

was too critical of

00:19:37:26 - 00:19:39:12

organisations when I was when I

00:19:39:14 - 00:19:39:29

was in them.

00:19:40:29 - 00:19:43:20

But having been outside them

00:19:43:26 - 00:19:45:05

and looking back in, I think

00:19:45:07 - 00:19:47:00

there's a great will for this

00:19:47:02 - 00:19:48:15

work and particularly I'm going

00:19:48:17 - 00:19:49:10

to say after the last

00:19:49:12 - 00:19:49:27

two years.

00:19:50:07 - 00:19:51:15

I think the the will is

00:19:51:17 - 00:19:52:25

significantly higher now

00:19:52:27 - 00:19:55:04

because like we haven't seen

00:19:55:06 - 00:19:56:15

the separation of work

00:19:56:18 - 00:19:57:07

and life.

00:19:57:16 - 00:19:59:22

We've seen work as part

00:19:59:24 - 00:20:00:09

of life.

00:20:00:11 - 00:20:02:20

And and there's a real there's

00:20:02:22 - 00:20:04:01

a real want to do it now.

00:20:04:10 - 00:20:06:08

There's still a it's the

00:20:06:10 - 00:20:07:18

challenge around a lot of what

00:20:07:20 - 00:20:08:13

you said before, mate,

00:20:08:15 - 00:20:10:08

around the units of labour and

00:20:10:18 - 00:20:12:14

the technical type things that

00:20:12:22 - 00:20:14:25

and particularly time like this

00:20:14:27 - 00:20:15:21

work takes time.

00:20:15:23 - 00:20:17:11

So you've got to be prepared to

00:20:17:13 - 00:20:19:02

have a bit of a lag time

00:20:19:04 - 00:20:20:08

because it won't get

00:20:20:22 - 00:20:21:26

better straight away.

00:20:22:12 - 00:20:23:26

So I still see that

00:20:23:28 - 00:20:25:07

resistance of, well, hang on,

00:20:25:09 - 00:20:26:15

our results haven't got better

00:20:26:17 - 00:20:27:26

and it's two weeks after we've

00:20:27:28 - 00:20:28:19

done the work.

00:20:29:20 - 00:20:30:07

So there's a bit

00:20:30:09 - 00:20:31:12

of resistance, there's a bit

00:20:31:14 - 00:20:32:09

of excitement, there's a

00:20:32:11 - 00:20:33:06

bit of trepidation.

00:20:33:09 - 00:20:34:06

It's all thrown in.

00:20:34:11 - 00:20:34:26

Yeah.

00:20:36:03 - 00:20:37:06

What's your hope?

00:20:38:13 - 00:20:38:28

That

00:20:40:10 - 00:20:40:25

of what?

00:20:40:27 - 00:20:41:19

Your hope of what will be

00:20:41:21 - 00:20:42:07

created?

00:20:42:29 - 00:20:44:27

Because obviously, our hopes

00:20:44:29 - 00:20:46:00

and our dreams and our

00:20:46:02 - 00:20:47:18

aspirations and our visions for

00:20:47:20 - 00:20:48:24

ourselves and the world around

00:20:48:26 - 00:20:50:14

us is what compels us forward.

00:20:50:29 - 00:20:53:06

So what is your hope of what

00:20:53:08 - 00:20:55:03

would be created if we could

00:20:55:05 - 00:20:56:27

cultivate a more human approach

00:20:56:29 - 00:20:58:05

to leadership and management?

00:21:02:19 - 00:21:03:18

Oh, my.

00:21:03:28 - 00:21:05:13

My first hope is that.

00:21:07:16 - 00:21:08:21

That we look at.

00:21:09:19 - 00:21:12:02

The importance of, I guess,

00:21:12:04 - 00:21:13:07

the success factors,

00:21:13:09 - 00:21:14:12

the importance of the success

00:21:14:14 - 00:21:15:15

factors in a different way.

00:21:15:17 - 00:21:17:15

So I look at it this way now

00:21:17:17 - 00:21:18:03

and I say.

00:21:20:08 - 00:21:22:11

Self-aware, happy,

00:21:22:13 - 00:21:25:09

engaged human beings create

00:21:25:22 - 00:21:27:09

great organizational

00:21:27:11 - 00:21:28:18

and customer outcomes.

00:21:29:10 - 00:21:31:18

And that is the shifted

00:21:31:20 - 00:21:34:09

away from, you know, the what's

00:21:34:11 - 00:21:36:12

the stakeholder value,

00:21:36:14 - 00:21:38:19

what's the shareholder value,

00:21:38:21 - 00:21:41:06

what is the, the customer

00:21:41:08 - 00:21:43:07

experience and sort of making

00:21:43:09 - 00:21:44:10

it more centric around the

00:21:44:12 - 00:21:45:04

human beings that are

00:21:45:06 - 00:21:46:05

in your organization.

00:21:46:07 - 00:21:47:19

So my hope is that we truly

00:21:47:21 - 00:21:49:04

start to live this idea that

00:21:49:24 - 00:21:50:23

our people are the most

00:21:50:25 - 00:21:52:04

important asset in

00:21:52:06 - 00:21:52:21

our business.

00:21:53:06 - 00:21:54:06

That's the big hope.

00:21:54:23 - 00:21:56:00

The other hope is that.

00:21:59:06 - 00:22:01:20

Is that we we can truly see a

00:22:01:22 - 00:22:04:17

shift in in awareness and

00:22:04:19 - 00:22:06:26

in self-awareness, because I

00:22:06:28 - 00:22:08:18

think we're I think we're very

00:22:08:20 - 00:22:10:07

quick to to look outwards.

00:22:11:10 - 00:22:13:06

I talk very much these days

00:22:13:08 - 00:22:14:18

about the mythical creatures of

00:22:14:20 - 00:22:16:09

them invading organizations,

00:22:16:19 - 00:22:17:25

the people it's easy to point

00:22:17:27 - 00:22:18:12

the finger at.

00:22:18:14 - 00:22:19:20

So my other hope is that,

00:22:20:04 - 00:22:20:22

you know, to coin

00:22:20:24 - 00:22:21:27

the Alinsky phrase.

00:22:23:06 - 00:22:24:19

What's your part in the myth is

00:22:24:21 - 00:22:25:23

that people start there.

00:22:26:07 - 00:22:27:02

And I mean that that

00:22:27:08 - 00:22:28:12

with everybody, it's not just

00:22:28:14 - 00:22:29:10

about the managers and

00:22:29:12 - 00:22:31:03

the leaders, is that we create

00:22:31:05 - 00:22:32:20

organizations full of people

00:22:32:22 - 00:22:34:05

who look back towards

00:22:34:07 - 00:22:35:18

themselves first before they

00:22:35:20 - 00:22:38:19

look outwards for to blame and

00:22:38:21 - 00:22:39:21

create a blame culture.

00:22:39:23 - 00:22:40:08

And.

00:22:40:19 - 00:22:41:19

And we end up with.

00:22:42:25 - 00:22:44:15

With organizations that are

00:22:45:02 - 00:22:45:22

full of

00:22:46:08 - 00:22:47:13

different perspectives,

00:22:47:26 - 00:22:49:17

different backgrounds,

00:22:50:03 - 00:22:51:03

different upbringings,

00:22:51:05 - 00:22:52:09

different environments,

00:22:53:24 - 00:22:55:15

but an ability to accept

00:22:56:02 - 00:22:58:08

different perspectives from the

00:22:58:10 - 00:22:59:14

human beings that are in there

00:22:59:16 - 00:23:00:28

rather than, you know,

00:23:01:00 - 00:23:02:02

the rightness that we see

00:23:02:04 - 00:23:02:24

play out today.

00:23:03:13 - 00:23:05:09

That idea of being able to

00:23:05:11 - 00:23:06:25

acknowledge and accept.

00:23:09:02 - 00:23:10:15

Differences in the different

00:23:10:17 - 00:23:11:18

ways that they see the world,

00:23:11:20 - 00:23:12:15

different ways they

00:23:12:17 - 00:23:13:06

approach things,

00:23:13:08 - 00:23:14:06

different belief systems.

00:23:14:08 - 00:23:14:28

They carry different,

00:23:15:01 - 00:23:15:24

different versions of

00:23:15:26 - 00:23:16:12

the truth.

00:23:16:28 - 00:23:17:26

It seems to me that that's

00:23:17:28 - 00:23:19:05

such a critical.

00:23:20:15 - 00:23:22:01

Ingredient for the kind of

00:23:22:03 - 00:23:23:11

leadership that we need because

00:23:23:13 - 00:23:23:28

we know that.

00:23:24:21 - 00:23:26:23

We know that leadership in all

00:23:26:25 - 00:23:28:03

the research tells us whether

00:23:28:05 - 00:23:29:06

it's the work of Kagen or

00:23:29:08 - 00:23:29:26

whether it's the work that

00:23:29:28 - 00:23:30:28

comes from Bob Adams.

00:23:31:08 - 00:23:32:25

It says that the leaders that

00:23:32:27 - 00:23:34:02

get stuck in only being able to

00:23:34:04 - 00:23:35:02

see one way of seeing

00:23:35:04 - 00:23:36:02

the world, one truth, and it's

00:23:36:04 - 00:23:37:06

usually a truth that's given to

00:23:37:08 - 00:23:39:06

them by the system that.

00:23:40:06 - 00:23:40:24

That they.

00:23:41:22 - 00:23:43:18

Are probably capable of

00:23:43:20 - 00:23:45:01

maintaining the system

00:23:45:03 - 00:23:45:20

that they're in.

00:23:46:12 - 00:23:47:13

You know, custodians of the

00:23:47:15 - 00:23:48:26

system maintain the system,

00:23:48:28 - 00:23:50:04

maintaining the status quo,

00:23:50:28 - 00:23:52:05

but they typically are

00:23:52:07 - 00:23:53:29

incapable of transforming the

00:23:54:01 - 00:23:56:00

system and that the sort of

00:23:56:02 - 00:23:57:14

leadership that can transform

00:23:57:16 - 00:23:58:19

the system is leadership that

00:23:58:21 - 00:23:59:18

can see more than

00:23:59:20 - 00:24:00:26

one perspective, more than one

00:24:00:28 - 00:24:01:25

belief system, more than

00:24:01:27 - 00:24:02:16

one truth, in fact,

00:24:02:18 - 00:24:03:11

multiple truths.

00:24:04:06 - 00:24:05:04

And that's the kind of

00:24:05:06 - 00:24:06:26

leadership we need so much more

00:24:06:28 - 00:24:09:05

of today, because we need to

00:24:09:07 - 00:24:10:24

transform the organizations

00:24:10:26 - 00:24:11:25

and the systems.

00:24:12:23 - 00:24:14:10

Which rules these organizations

00:24:14:12 - 00:24:15:03

and rules some of our

00:24:15:05 - 00:24:16:14

communities and rule the way

00:24:16:16 - 00:24:17:25

in which, you know,

00:24:18:04 - 00:24:19:02

the world works.

00:24:19:04 - 00:24:21:09

If we're going to solve for or

00:24:21:11 - 00:24:22:11

make progress with some of the

00:24:22:13 - 00:24:23:13

challenges that we have.

00:24:25:07 - 00:24:26:24

So the interesting thing

00:24:26:26 - 00:24:28:06

for me, Gerrit, is that I.

00:24:29:08 - 00:24:30:18

I talk to people about the

00:24:30:20 - 00:24:33:27

curse of rightness and there is

00:24:33:29 - 00:24:35:25

a there is a need for.

00:24:36:14 - 00:24:37:26

I think most of us, if not all

00:24:37:28 - 00:24:39:09

of us and I think this need

00:24:39:11 - 00:24:40:12

came from an earlier age,

00:24:40:14 - 00:24:41:12

perhaps in the schoolyard,

00:24:41:14 - 00:24:43:02

is that we need to be seen

00:24:43:04 - 00:24:43:22

to be right.

00:24:43:24 - 00:24:47:03

And and I think this is one of

00:24:47:05 - 00:24:48:20

the great inhibitors of

00:24:48:22 - 00:24:50:11

true transformation, is that

00:24:50:13 - 00:24:52:06

when we turn up being right,

00:24:52:19 - 00:24:54:22

that means somebody else has

00:24:54:24 - 00:24:55:09

to be wrong.

00:24:55:23 - 00:24:59:03

And and if we continue to to

00:24:59:05 - 00:25:00:27

live in that world filled with

00:25:00:29 - 00:25:04:01

that curiosity, then we will

00:25:04:03 - 00:25:05:14

continue to get what we get,

00:25:05:16 - 00:25:06:27

which is, I'm going to say

00:25:06:29 - 00:25:07:24

short term

00:25:07:26 - 00:25:09:06

transactional change.

00:25:09:27 - 00:25:10:19

And some of that

00:25:10:21 - 00:25:12:01

change is useful.

00:25:13:04 - 00:25:14:11

But it's not sustainable

00:25:14:13 - 00:25:15:22

because it then means we have

00:25:15:24 - 00:25:16:14

to do another one.

00:25:16:16 - 00:25:17:10

It's a bit like when

00:25:17:12 - 00:25:19:21

organisations go away every

00:25:19:23 - 00:25:21:26

year to do their five year plan

00:25:22:29 - 00:25:24:02

and just think about that for a

00:25:24:04 - 00:25:25:02

minute and it's like they'll

00:25:25:04 - 00:25:25:25

get in there and there'll be

00:25:25:27 - 00:25:27:04

rightness and wrongness and

00:25:27:06 - 00:25:28:01

nice things and you sort

00:25:28:03 - 00:25:30:00

of think, I wonder what would

00:25:30:02 - 00:25:31:02

happen if we listened to all

00:25:31:04 - 00:25:33:27

the voices in the room and we

00:25:33:29 - 00:25:35:11

realised that by taking a bit

00:25:35:13 - 00:25:36:21

more time to do that, we can

00:25:36:23 - 00:25:39:03

truly embrace transformational

00:25:39:05 - 00:25:41:06

change and not just stop,

00:25:41:08 - 00:25:42:12

start transactional change.

00:25:42:14 - 00:25:43:09

So I think there's a bit of

00:25:43:18 - 00:25:44:09

there's a bit of work to

00:25:44:11 - 00:25:45:12

be done, but the first

00:25:45:14 - 00:25:47:11

thing is, is to be able to go,

00:25:48:11 - 00:25:49:13

what if I'm not right?

00:25:51:00 - 00:25:52:18

Because of course being right

00:25:53:14 - 00:25:56:06

in a inflated sense, in a

00:25:56:08 - 00:25:57:05

magnified sense,

00:25:57:07 - 00:25:58:23

can lead to righteousness.

00:25:59:09 - 00:25:59:24

And of course,

00:25:59:26 - 00:26:01:05

righteousness often leads

00:26:01:07 - 00:26:04:06

to ignorance, hatred.

00:26:05:03 - 00:26:05:18

And.

00:26:06:18 - 00:26:07:14

And that's obviously a

00:26:07:16 - 00:26:08:15

cause of suffering.

00:26:08:17 - 00:26:10:01

It's it's one of the you know,

00:26:10:03 - 00:26:12:15

those those aspects of being

00:26:12:17 - 00:26:14:26

human are the undesirable

00:26:14:28 - 00:26:16:05

aspects of being human.

00:26:16:24 - 00:26:19:07

Does your work acknowledge or

00:26:19:09 - 00:26:20:23

directly address those other

00:26:20:25 - 00:26:22:02

aspects of being human that are

00:26:22:04 - 00:26:23:20

destructive and cause cause

00:26:23:22 - 00:26:24:08

suffering?

00:26:26:05 - 00:26:26:20

Yes.

00:26:26:22 - 00:26:27:16

It does not tell you how.

00:26:27:18 - 00:26:28:18

It does it very much.

00:26:30:04 - 00:26:31:29

I used myself as the case study

00:26:32:01 - 00:26:32:20

because I think it's

00:26:32:22 - 00:26:33:22

really important that.

00:26:36:10 - 00:26:38:01

I've lived two lives in

00:26:38:03 - 00:26:39:14

the workplace, one being what I

00:26:39:16 - 00:26:41:03

call bad mark and one being

00:26:41:05 - 00:26:42:05

what I call good Mark.

00:26:42:07 - 00:26:46:19

And so showing how even when

00:26:46:21 - 00:26:47:18

you think you're turning out

00:26:47:20 - 00:26:48:26

with good intention to do

00:26:48:28 - 00:26:49:13

good work,

00:26:49:15 - 00:26:50:00

you're

00:26:50:02 - 00:26:51:03

actually being destructive.

00:26:51:20 - 00:26:52:26

And I think it's really

00:26:52:28 - 00:26:54:16

important that we see the whole

00:26:54:18 - 00:26:57:18

human because my kids will

00:26:57:20 - 00:26:58:06

often say to me,

00:26:58:08 - 00:26:59:14

they're adults now, but they'll

00:26:59:16 - 00:27:00:18

say something and they'll say

00:27:00:20 - 00:27:02:04

to me, Hashtag human manager,

00:27:02:20 - 00:27:03:05

you know?

00:27:03:07 - 00:27:04:15

And it's like just to remind me

00:27:04:17 - 00:27:05:23

that I can still be.

00:27:06:17 - 00:27:08:08

It time's not how I'm.

00:27:09:13 - 00:27:11:12

Telling other people or saying

00:27:11:14 - 00:27:11:29

to other people that

00:27:12:01 - 00:27:12:16

they should be.

00:27:12:18 - 00:27:14:01

So I think it's important to

00:27:14:03 - 00:27:15:04

acknowledge it because this

00:27:15:06 - 00:27:16:10

isn't about perfection.

00:27:16:27 - 00:27:17:26

And I think a lot of us

00:27:17:28 - 00:27:18:27

are after perfection.

00:27:18:29 - 00:27:19:14

00:27:20:28 - 00:27:23:00

we need to appreciate that.

00:27:24:11 - 00:27:25:20

It's part of the maturation

00:27:25:22 - 00:27:26:26

that I'll call it for myself.

00:27:26:28 - 00:27:28:04

I actually think it was really

00:27:28:06 - 00:27:29:27

good year to go through the bad

00:27:29:29 - 00:27:31:21

mock phase and to be able to

00:27:31:23 - 00:27:33:09

talk about that and not be

00:27:33:11 - 00:27:34:14

proud of it, but be able to

00:27:34:16 - 00:27:36:04

talk and help others to learn

00:27:36:06 - 00:27:38:09

from it that we are that we are

00:27:38:11 - 00:27:39:20

a fully if we are a fully

00:27:39:22 - 00:27:40:25

rounded human being, we would

00:27:40:27 - 00:27:42:10

have all dipped our toe into

00:27:42:12 - 00:27:44:15

that that sort of darker space

00:27:44:17 - 00:27:45:17

that you mentioned earlier.

00:27:47:24 - 00:27:48:29

And if we are unable to.

00:27:50:02 - 00:27:51:15

Unable to acknowledge that dark

00:27:51:17 - 00:27:52:26

space within us and the dark

00:27:52:28 - 00:27:53:13

space that we can

00:27:53:15 - 00:27:54:19

potentially occupy, then we

00:27:54:21 - 00:27:56:02

can't really understand what it

00:27:56:04 - 00:27:56:27

means to be human.

00:27:58:18 - 00:28:00:16

Well, we can understand if we

00:28:00:18 - 00:28:01:08

can understand

00:28:01:10 - 00:28:02:00

that for ourselves.

00:28:02:02 - 00:28:03:09

This is, I think, a really

00:28:03:11 - 00:28:04:14

important point is that.

00:28:05:22 - 00:28:07:06

I really, truly believe in

00:28:07:08 - 00:28:08:24

order to lead others, we must

00:28:08:26 - 00:28:11:11

first of all lead self to.

00:28:11:13 - 00:28:12:13

In order to know others,

00:28:12:15 - 00:28:13:17

we must know self.

00:28:13:19 - 00:28:14:21

And again, this is

00:28:14:23 - 00:28:15:21

the hardest work.

00:28:15:23 - 00:28:16:08

00:28:17:25 - 00:28:19:12

I'd suggest that people that,

00:28:19:14 - 00:28:20:19

you know, doing it and I think

00:28:20:21 - 00:28:21:16

there are some really good ones

00:28:21:18 - 00:28:22:08

out there but doing a

00:28:22:10 - 00:28:23:16

psychometric profile and

00:28:23:18 - 00:28:25:11

then saying, Well, this is me,

00:28:25:19 - 00:28:26:22

we need to do more

00:28:26:24 - 00:28:27:14

work than that.

00:28:27:16 - 00:28:29:14

And I think this is where this

00:28:30:00 - 00:28:31:09

this is where organisations

00:28:31:11 - 00:28:32:20

don't transform is because they

00:28:32:22 - 00:28:34:02

don't spend enough time on the

00:28:34:04 - 00:28:34:27

work of self.

00:28:35:29 - 00:28:37:26

They try and take a box on that

00:28:37:28 - 00:28:39:00

and then move into the other

00:28:39:02 - 00:28:42:05

work that we're, we're more

00:28:42:07 - 00:28:43:20

comfortable with but we are

00:28:43:22 - 00:28:46:03

more capable of doing because

00:28:46:05 - 00:28:47:01

we've learnt that all

00:28:47:03 - 00:28:47:18

the way through.

00:28:47:20 - 00:28:50:02

So, you know, spending time on

00:28:50:11 - 00:28:52:20

looking at the whole human and

00:28:52:22 - 00:28:53:25

the good and bad that comes

00:28:53:27 - 00:28:55:10

with that and particularly in

00:28:55:12 - 00:28:57:26

yourself I think is, is both

00:28:57:28 - 00:28:59:06

terrifying and liberating at

00:28:59:08 - 00:28:59:25

the same time.

00:29:00:06 - 00:29:02:00

Yeah, it reminds me of the,

00:29:02:24 - 00:29:05:02

the interview that a

00:29:05:07 - 00:29:06:20

journalist had with.

00:29:08:04 - 00:29:10:10

Gandhi in the period,

00:29:10:14 - 00:29:11:10

the period in which he was

00:29:11:12 - 00:29:12:17

seeking to lead the people of

00:29:12:19 - 00:29:14:07

India out from colonial rule

00:29:14:09 - 00:29:15:07

and into democracy and

00:29:15:19 - 00:29:16:26

freedom and independence.

00:29:18:04 - 00:29:19:00

And it was right in the middle

00:29:19:02 - 00:29:19:18

of the struggle.

00:29:19:20 - 00:29:20:16

And this journalist set with

00:29:20:18 - 00:29:22:28

him in his home village,

00:29:23:00 - 00:29:24:07

and they were just sitting

00:29:24:09 - 00:29:24:28

on the ground.

00:29:25:23 - 00:29:27:24

And Gandhi was dressed in just

00:29:27:26 - 00:29:30:01

very simple cloth.

00:29:30:12 - 00:29:31:15

And the journalist said

00:29:31:17 - 00:29:32:09

to him, asked him

00:29:32:11 - 00:29:34:13

the question, What's your

00:29:34:15 - 00:29:35:26

greatest challenge?

00:29:37:01 - 00:29:38:15

And if you were a betting man,

00:29:39:02 - 00:29:40:07

you would assume that he's

00:29:40:09 - 00:29:41:03

going to respond with.

00:29:41:05 - 00:29:42:05

Well, my greatest challenge is

00:29:42:07 - 00:29:43:09

to continue to play a role in

00:29:43:11 - 00:29:44:13

leading the people of India out

00:29:44:15 - 00:29:45:08

from colonial rule,

00:29:45:10 - 00:29:45:25

etc.

00:29:45:27 - 00:29:46:12

, etc.

00:29:46:14 - 00:29:46:29

00:29:47:01 - 00:29:47:16

But he didn't.

00:29:47:18 - 00:29:49:04

He responded with the words,

00:29:49:28 - 00:29:51:08

My greatest battle

00:29:51:16 - 00:29:52:27

lies within myself.

00:29:54:13 - 00:29:54:28

Yep.

00:29:55:15 - 00:29:57:06

So when it comes to, you know,

00:29:57:08 - 00:29:59:11

obviously self-awareness and

00:29:59:13 - 00:30:03:07

self-acceptance are part of the

00:30:03:09 - 00:30:04:21

conditions that we need to

00:30:04:23 - 00:30:07:12

cultivate more humanness

00:30:07:14 - 00:30:08:09

in our leadership.

00:30:08:27 - 00:30:10:14

What are the if we do want to

00:30:10:16 - 00:30:11:19

be more human at work?

00:30:11:21 - 00:30:13:00

What other ingredients or

00:30:13:02 - 00:30:14:09

conditions do you feel are the

00:30:14:11 - 00:30:15:18

most critical that we need to

00:30:15:20 - 00:30:16:05

cultivate?

00:30:19:21 - 00:30:22:07

I think the acceptance that we

00:30:22:09 - 00:30:26:02

are we are flawed is a is a

00:30:26:04 - 00:30:27:21

real starting point because,

00:30:27:23 - 00:30:29:12

you know, again, if I look at

00:30:29:21 - 00:30:30:25

having been a schoolteacher

00:30:30:27 - 00:30:31:12

looking at the

00:30:31:14 - 00:30:32:12

education system,

00:30:32:14 - 00:30:33:06

it's all about.

00:30:35:00 - 00:30:36:09

Weaknesses and fixing

00:30:36:11 - 00:30:37:18

weaknesses and all those

00:30:37:20 - 00:30:38:10

sorts of things.

00:30:38:12 - 00:30:40:25

And then we sort of get to a

00:30:40:27 - 00:30:41:21

point where we don't want to

00:30:41:23 - 00:30:42:23

show any of those things.

00:30:42:25 - 00:30:44:00

So I think the acceptance of

00:30:44:02 - 00:30:45:25

self-acceptance that I turn up

00:30:46:23 - 00:30:48:06

as a flawed human being,

00:30:48:17 - 00:30:50:01

regardless of my position of

00:30:50:03 - 00:30:52:23

power in the hierarchy, I think

00:30:52:25 - 00:30:54:25

that's a really that's that to

00:30:54:27 - 00:30:55:24

me is like the.

00:30:56:25 - 00:30:58:06

That's that's the invitation

00:30:58:08 - 00:30:58:23

into the game.

00:30:59:07 - 00:31:00:24

We've got to be able to do that

00:31:00:26 - 00:31:02:10

because particularly if we are

00:31:02:12 - 00:31:03:18

in a position in some position

00:31:03:20 - 00:31:06:03

of power, is that others will.

00:31:07:22 - 00:31:08:27

We'll take some inspiration

00:31:08:29 - 00:31:10:21

from that and I can

00:31:10:23 - 00:31:12:14

follow then, whereas if we're a

00:31:12:16 - 00:31:13:22

bit closed off from those sorts

00:31:13:24 - 00:31:14:19

of things, so we can't

00:31:14:21 - 00:31:15:14

be closed off.

00:31:15:16 - 00:31:16:10

We can't be.

00:31:17:11 - 00:31:18:11

We can't not

00:31:18:13 - 00:31:19:18

show vulnerability, you know?

00:31:19:23 - 00:31:20:24

You know, vulnerability has

00:31:20:26 - 00:31:21:27

been seen as traditionally

00:31:21:29 - 00:31:22:14

as a weakness.

00:31:22:16 - 00:31:23:19

So I think the other condition

00:31:23:21 - 00:31:24:26

is that we we can

00:31:24:28 - 00:31:25:21

be vulnerable.

00:31:26:09 - 00:31:27:12

I think there's another piece

00:31:27:14 - 00:31:28:18

here around boundaries that

00:31:28:20 - 00:31:31:03

we've also got to be aware that

00:31:31:19 - 00:31:32:24

not everybody's at the same

00:31:32:26 - 00:31:35:05

place on, let's call it

00:31:35:07 - 00:31:36:14

their humanness, even though we

00:31:36:16 - 00:31:38:23

may have all of the similar

00:31:38:25 - 00:31:40:12

components that make us human,

00:31:40:14 - 00:31:42:00

as in physiological components

00:31:42:02 - 00:31:43:00

that we're all in a different

00:31:43:22 - 00:31:46:00

page from, from an experience

00:31:46:02 - 00:31:47:19

maturity level, and that we

00:31:47:27 - 00:31:51:25

that we accept that not

00:31:51:27 - 00:31:52:24

everybody is exactly

00:31:52:26 - 00:31:53:12

where we are.

00:31:53:16 - 00:31:54:01

I think that's

00:31:54:03 - 00:31:54:22

really important.

00:31:56:09 - 00:31:57:11

What else would it be?

00:31:57:13 - 00:31:58:02

I think.

00:32:00:10 - 00:32:01:07

I think the other one for

00:32:01:09 - 00:32:02:06

me is.

00:32:04:10 - 00:32:07:09

The ability to be resilient.

00:32:07:11 - 00:32:08:22

And I like to use these three

00:32:08:24 - 00:32:10:15

words Hold your nerve,

00:32:10:19 - 00:32:12:07

because this work is

00:32:12:09 - 00:32:12:29

a long game.

00:32:13:19 - 00:32:14:25

And I think one of the reasons

00:32:14:27 - 00:32:16:04

that we aren't making the

00:32:16:06 - 00:32:17:21

progress that we're capable of

00:32:17:23 - 00:32:19:09

making is that we get caught in

00:32:19:11 - 00:32:20:15

the short termism of

00:32:21:06 - 00:32:22:09

next week's results.

00:32:22:11 - 00:32:23:16

The Quarterly Business Review,

00:32:23:20 - 00:32:24:27

all things that are important

00:32:25:22 - 00:32:27:20

as I guess, measures of health

00:32:27:22 - 00:32:28:18

of the organization.

00:32:28:20 - 00:32:30:19

But there will be times when

00:32:30:21 - 00:32:32:04

things when you're being human

00:32:32:06 - 00:32:33:11

actually aren't you're not

00:32:33:13 - 00:32:35:22

seeing the change as

00:32:35:24 - 00:32:36:23

immediately as you'd like.

00:32:36:25 - 00:32:37:18

But you've got to sit there

00:32:37:20 - 00:32:39:09

and go, hold your nerve.

00:32:40:22 - 00:32:41:09

And I think that's

00:32:41:11 - 00:32:42:03

important as well.

00:32:45:11 - 00:32:48:23

Today I was talking to someone

00:32:48:25 - 00:32:49:28

who was providing me with a

00:32:50:00 - 00:32:51:21

briefing on an

00:32:51:23 - 00:32:53:13

executive leadership team.

00:32:54:22 - 00:32:58:10

Who need to do some work on the

00:32:58:12 - 00:32:59:04

leadership and

00:32:59:06 - 00:33:00:06

the collective leadership.

00:33:01:06 - 00:33:02:23

What was described to me was

00:33:02:27 - 00:33:04:21

this team during COVID.

00:33:05:29 - 00:33:07:23

Recognize the challenges that

00:33:07:25 - 00:33:08:28

was presented to everyone who

00:33:09:00 - 00:33:10:08

worked in their organization.

00:33:11:15 - 00:33:12:00

As well as their

00:33:12:02 - 00:33:12:29

customers and.

00:33:13:28 - 00:33:15:07

And adopted a much

00:33:15:09 - 00:33:17:05

more caring, connected.

00:33:19:13 - 00:33:20:08

Empathetic,

00:33:20:15 - 00:33:22:15

compassionate, flexible.

00:33:23:03 - 00:33:24:00

Open minded.

00:33:25:17 - 00:33:28:18

Uh, approach and kind of less.

00:33:28:28 - 00:33:29:26

More patience,

00:33:29:28 - 00:33:30:27

less impatience.

00:33:32:05 - 00:33:32:21

And.

00:33:34:04 - 00:33:35:12

What this person was sharing

00:33:35:14 - 00:33:36:28

with me is that they just had

00:33:37:00 - 00:33:38:03

some engagement data which

00:33:38:05 - 00:33:40:06

actually came back recently

00:33:40:08 - 00:33:41:23

which said, well, they've lost

00:33:41:25 - 00:33:43:01

that because people are now

00:33:43:03 - 00:33:44:15

saying via the engagement data

00:33:44:17 - 00:33:46:04

that this is a group

00:33:46:06 - 00:33:47:00

of leaders, that people are

00:33:47:02 - 00:33:49:00

really wondering who they are

00:33:49:02 - 00:33:50:02

and what they really believe.

00:33:50:04 - 00:33:50:19

And they're just like they're

00:33:50:21 - 00:33:52:00

disconnected now from them and

00:33:52:02 - 00:33:53:27

they what they represent is

00:33:53:29 - 00:33:55:07

something which is inconsistent

00:33:55:09 - 00:33:56:18

with the organisation.

00:33:56:20 - 00:33:57:12

So confidence in the

00:33:57:14 - 00:33:58:03

organisation is

00:33:58:05 - 00:34:00:16

diminished somewhat and.

00:34:02:13 - 00:34:03:28

Are you seeing some kind of

00:34:04:00 - 00:34:05:23

snapback in organizations away

00:34:05:25 - 00:34:08:28

from a human approach to back

00:34:09:00 - 00:34:10:10

towards that kind of less human

00:34:10:12 - 00:34:12:17

approach as the imperative for

00:34:12:19 - 00:34:14:02

performance and the drive for

00:34:14:04 - 00:34:14:19

results?

00:34:14:21 - 00:34:15:22

And the concern about if we're

00:34:15:24 - 00:34:16:27

not the first out of the blocks

00:34:16:29 - 00:34:18:25

post-COVID than our competitors

00:34:18:26 - 00:34:20:14

will will take us out.

00:34:22:07 - 00:34:24:10

I reckon I'm seeing both,

00:34:24:12 - 00:34:25:18

but starting to see a little

00:34:25:20 - 00:34:26:11

bit more of what you've

00:34:26:13 - 00:34:27:29

just described and.

00:34:29:18 - 00:34:32:12

Look, I always caution

00:34:32:14 - 00:34:34:12

organizations I work with to be

00:34:34:14 - 00:34:36:00

looking into the dark shadows

00:34:36:02 - 00:34:37:07

where the old system

00:34:37:09 - 00:34:37:25

is lurking.

00:34:38:12 - 00:34:39:15

Because that's what it does.

00:34:39:17 - 00:34:40:02

And it's.

00:34:41:02 - 00:34:42:19

It's always there, even in the

00:34:42:21 - 00:34:44:01

organizations that have got

00:34:44:03 - 00:34:45:28

close to nailing this this

00:34:46:00 - 00:34:46:26

thing still lurking

00:34:46:28 - 00:34:47:19

in the shadows.

00:34:47:21 - 00:34:50:09

Because I think the old system

00:34:50:11 - 00:34:51:10

and the old system means

00:34:51:12 - 00:34:52:18

the humans, some of the humans

00:34:52:20 - 00:34:53:20

that are in the old system,

00:34:53:22 - 00:34:54:17

because that's what

00:34:54:19 - 00:34:55:12

the system is.

00:34:57:05 - 00:34:59:05

They still claim that their

00:34:59:07 - 00:35:01:29

rightful position is at the top

00:35:02:01 - 00:35:03:17

of the organization, as in we

00:35:03:19 - 00:35:04:17

need to go back to what we

00:35:04:19 - 00:35:05:04

used to do.

00:35:05:06 - 00:35:05:21

00:35:07:03 - 00:35:09:06

I reckon this thing's popping

00:35:09:08 - 00:35:10:27

its head back out of the

00:35:10:29 - 00:35:13:08

shadows now, and it's doing it

00:35:13:10 - 00:35:14:24

at different paces because it's

00:35:14:26 - 00:35:16:00

very clever as well.

00:35:16:11 - 00:35:18:22

It sort of knows when to be the

00:35:18:24 - 00:35:19:29

wolf in sheep's clothing and

00:35:20:01 - 00:35:20:18

then it knows when to

00:35:20:20 - 00:35:21:12

bear its teeth.

00:35:21:14 - 00:35:22:18

And I think that I'm seeing

00:35:22:20 - 00:35:24:10

everything from the

00:35:24:12 - 00:35:27:02

masquerading of humanity in our

00:35:27:04 - 00:35:28:20

organisation now to

00:35:29:03 - 00:35:30:07

to fully blown.

00:35:30:20 - 00:35:31:29

Get back in the office.

00:35:32:22 - 00:35:33:26

We're in control.

00:35:35:00 - 00:35:35:27

You want your job.

00:35:36:28 - 00:35:38:15

You know, the keyboard

00:35:38:17 - 00:35:39:23

monitoring stuff that went on

00:35:39:25 - 00:35:40:24

during it as well.

00:35:41:03 - 00:35:41:18

So I think I'm

00:35:41:20 - 00:35:43:17

seeing everything, but I'm also

00:35:43:19 - 00:35:44:25

seeing those organizations that

00:35:44:27 - 00:35:46:21

have and I think some of them

00:35:46:23 - 00:35:48:24

by accident, have transformed.

00:35:50:12 - 00:35:52:06

And that's where I hold the

00:35:52:08 - 00:35:54:12

hope is that we got to hear

00:35:54:14 - 00:35:56:23